Why Hubbard Never Claimed OT Feats And The Rock Bottom Basis Of Scientology

The pattern in Scientology is incredibly - almost idiotically simple - confuse a person by some method even slightly then offer a "stable datum" for that confusion that is accepted. Here is the important part I just now got this exactly - the stable data is ALWAYS meant to be two things a lie and a method to induce further confusion that leads to accepting another stable datum, over and over. That is the con. The details vary and their effects and deserve tremendous study and dissection but the formula has only a few basic parts always. Confuse, offer solution to confusion give "solution" it is a lie designed to bring more confusion immediately or later. Sometimes there is a delay or apparent relief for a time before the confusion is back. Why ? Because if it does not add up if the truth was not part of the equation - it is all lies. Always was always will be. No truth ever, no workable anything, no miracles. One formula one conman one con . And by confusion I mean the confusion and reelingness and mental blankness associated with cognitive dissonance - it is a distinct feeling of being baffled or beffudled or overwhwelmed and can be from contradictory or surprising info, behavior or emotions - ANYTHING that creates or brings back those phenomena even slightly.

This is why Hubbard wanted people to not be given one thing to solve a problem - he wanted the person baited then drawn in forever.

That is all Scientology is  - a big con made bit by bit from small ones built up into a total gradual surrender of identity and self .The ironic thing is that the surrender comes for one purpose - to relieve the confusion by submitting to Hubbard's will to escape the confusion.

Have you ever been with someone, and you are thoroughly confused in a situation and they tell you to do something to change or end the situation and you do not understand how it will help or why but you just do it to get away from the unpleasant situation and the unpleasant feeling that trying to figure it out brings ? You not just follow instructions but also surrender judgment to avoid the confusion.

It seems logical - I cannot figure it out but this guy seems to know what to do so let us get this over with. It can work out and you may figure things out by observation in more simple and honest relationships and activities but that is not the case here. Not one bit. Hubbard is the absolute last person you should trust EVER. With anything. It is moronically simple and clear once you see it - confuse then lie, confuse then lie - have the lie set up further cooperation and confusion which leads to surrender and enslaving. Then they die, game over. But we can end the game now that we know it. I hope this is not confusing.

To continue, I am often asked how after 25 years in and most of that as a very close minded and fanatical extremist, how did I within a couple months come to totally reject everything From Hubbard and all his methods without reservation ?

I was asked about intelligence and my family background and other things. Not to disappoint you but people far more intelligent than me have taken decades to get to my level of rejection of Hubbard. That is not the reason. Part of it is that I could instantly find certain information I have discussed before but even now with that widely available others still often take longer - some much much longer to reject Hubbard's fraud.

Let's go back to how it is applied - Fred, our cult victim - is brought in on a point of cooperating to some degree, even slightly with the cult even if just by walking in or listening or reading something. He is doing what Hubbard directs. He has some confusion - it could be miniscule. What is Scientology ? Is it a science or religion or something else ? Is Dianetics a psychotherapy or just talking about your problems ? Fred can have any tiny confusion or even just a curiosity and the cult can make him confused - via evaluating a personality test or showing him a film with odd ideas and words. Just a little confusion is all it takes - and new ideas and words are inherently confusing. Fred gets directed to do something to alleviate the confusion, read a book, take a course, meet a staff member watch a video - SOMETHING.

The important thing is the person in confusion follows direction to handle it and it seems to be handled, but it often is not. Scientology is a confusing term as it sounds like science and technology combined but is promoted as an applied religious philosophy but that is a confusing way to say a religion as all religions in fact fit that definition if you break it down. And Hubbard goes to great lengths to add to that initial confusion and never clear it up. He gives long ambiguous and circular vague definitions and in his stories claims to tell you something and never gets around to telling you. That is to make a mystery but more than that to confuse you and then direct your attention and action within that confusion.

That is the con, that is why Hubbard never gave claims of OT feats ( aside from some rare ones in person ). That is why he would say "Ron, People ask where are you on the bridge ?" and he would NEVER answer. Certainly not as an idea in the doctrine that is disseminated at entry level. He wanted confusion via mystery to stir in an unresolvable way in his victim's mind to help control them. Mysteries require confusion - what is this ? Why is it this way ? How Ot is he ? What OT powers does he have ? What OT powers will I get ? These mysteries serve to direct and tie up attention and prevent examination of clear claims. Even a slight claim in Scientology doctrine would lead to - is this real and verifiable coming up . And the answer to that is not confusing-NO. No OT feats , no OTs no clears no workable technology EVER. That is the truth about Scientology. He confuses by talking about OT powers from way back down the track but promotes regaining abilities in vague language on the grade chart and in promotional materials intentionally so the victim wonders at it all in a directed manner - how OT can these courses make me ? When do I get telekinesis and to go exterior and heal people at will ? NOT do I get this but when and how much. Mysteries without answers are the opposite of critical thinking. And scientific methodology.

That is his method. In my mind whether it is from his love of hypnosis and it having confusion and repetition in it or rhetoric or somewhere else he arrived at 1) get attention 2) create confusion 3) lie to direct attention while pretending to resolve the confusion( without resolving the confusion as it is his basis for an entry point for exploitation - so he will never give it up ) 4) create another confusion requiring more attention and controlled action to pursue a claimed resolution that never comes 5) get more compliance from the victim and gradual increase via the first four steps over and over in confusion and compliance. And by compliance increasing I mean getting greater and greater degree of how willing and unthinking the victim is. How willing to do more and more extreme things and give more money and adulation and trust and even the victim's life and blind loyalty are they ? Never enough for Hubbard - he wanted gradual building to absolute devotion. With no other priorities even left at all. And the confusion is to grow too as he saw it holding this all in place. Some will look at his study of hypnosis and say the growing confusion acts hypnotically and some would say it creates a condition of hiding the cognitive dissonance and discomfort in the subconscious via trance logic so it gets directed via projection or other psychological defense mechanisms at any who bring the confusion back to the surface but that is not the main point and that is for those who pursue the finest details on this to consider. And the growth of confusion is vital as it leaves those who do realize something is not true or right to often take forever to unstick the lies one by one as they feel odd about the ideas and unsure what is untrue or not. They do not see the pattern and so are emotionally still prey to it and emotion influences thought and behavior.


Okay, so back to why I rejected Hubbard totally within a couple months : Scientology uses thousands of accumulated confusions to hold it in place, the auditing that is euphoria from hypnosis and the trances in course are all confused with genuine mystical experiences and many events are confused for others and the conditions are confused with laws for life when they are fallacies, as is the tone scale. These are to control thought and behavior and claimed as discoveries instead of fabrications and so confound and confuse. This is why Scientology has thousands - perhaps millions of contradictions in it.

I detail some in the Secret Of Scientology Part 1 :http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?37580-THE-SECRET-OF-SCIENTOLOGY-PART-1

I realized in about January 2014 that there are no current OTs in the Sea Org and so can be none anywhere and so no clears and so no true technology as it all relied on the authority Hubbard is afforded as the clear and OT maker. All his credibility rests on those claims. I knew no matter how odd it felt or what doubts I had or trouble in reframing reality in a way that explained all my ideas and experiences that were there or came up - Hubbard was a pathological liar and from my experience dealing with unrepentent criminals, predators, narcissists and other devious manipulators before the cult life that you can never believe anything they say. So I resolved all confusions by being sure they were from being deceived somehow and pursued that course with great zeal.

The people who take so long or never recover despite any evidence do not see the confusions are what he used to bind the lies and forge the prison of belief. You can be confused by things - that is genuine so using a fake answer makes the directing of your attention off the confusion feel real if you do not look closely and see they are different. That is the mortar to make the certainty that Scientology has something real in it - your confusion hidden away is real but your being directed away is only momentary partial relief. That is sold as real but fake. That is why lies are always needed.

And to be even more exact on this. I recently came across material on narcissists and sociopaths and was stunned at how exactly accurate some of it is in describing Hubbard. Some descriptions have twelve or twenty traits and Hubbard was one for one on all of them. That warranted more examination and I found no matter what their education some of these models and theories show these people using confusing language and lies and contradictory stories to bewilder people and make them vulnerable to exploitation. Regardless of knowing hypnotism or mind control or even being able to read. It is first nature for a very, very small percent of people. So I considered Hubbard's use of confusion as having a possible deeper root than his study of hypnotism - though that provided many methods to attempt and combine. That prompted looking at Scientology anew and seeing all my experiences as fitting a pattern that is even simpler than earlier ones.

A narcissist or sociopath in some models gets victims to accept lies to confuse and control them and when clarity can come from truth they refuse to give it. I knew a person called Pat who would enthusiastically say "other people say this about you and that" and "everyone knows you do this wrong and have this to learn". I realized he was using gaslighting as revealing the hidden thoughts of others always involves a confusion as the thoughts might be truly what someone said or might not. They might have been changed in being passed on to be more harsh or less. The person might hate you or not really mean it and just have been angry about something else. So I told Pat to have the courage to say what was in his heart. He was stunned. He would come back in the days after and say "Do you want to know what is being said about you !?" and be agitated. I would calmly look right at him and say "As long as it comes from your heart". He always walked away deflated and dejected. He could only confuse with other people's claims as he had so little status all his complaints were laughed at openly. Everyone knew he lied and was selfish and cruel and so showed him no support, or his complaints either. He needed to be able to confuse to have power.

To help a Scientologist get them to look at what their ruin was when they came in. Many upon close examination realize this was never handled. The ruin is something Scientology somehow convinces you is ruining your life. And that Scientology can handle it. Scientology can do two things : make it appear something is ruining your life when it is not or find something you are unhappy about and pretend it can handle it. Either way there is a confusion as Scientology cannot improve you or your life but it can distract you from that as you are entrapped in a web of lies. It can confuse you about how or with what it can improve you as it is so big and contradictory always with hidden parts to reach for more and more. Always a more confusing subject as you get deeper into it and not less. I have met OT VIIIs and BC students who when being asked about their gains with the exact same terms used to describe their courses in Scientology doctrine pause, look stunned into anxiety, look around subtly and then relax and say "yes" in a monotone flat way.

They were not prepared for the question but could not outright reject it as it was in fact Hubbard doctrine. At the upper levels the promotional claims are avoided as a kind of mutual tacit consent that the gains never really occur and you accept less and less as you move up the bridge and compromise with your expectations more and more and finally just do courses out of habit after a while or to stay in the trances they provide to avoid unpleasant reality. I  was a person at the bottom of the bridge but so good at stating the non-confidential parts of their courses it stunned them.

The cognitive dissonance of the contrast between reality which I reminded them of and the claims they avoided as uncomfortable caused confusion to surface. that was where the anxiety came from. Their trance was threatened and they searched frantically in their mind for a stable datum - found one and reentered the trance and became calm and almost dead to me. I could almost see them thinking " How can this be ? I am supposed to be a demigod and cannot get my kids to listen or learn how to use a VCR ?", then they would find some Hubbard quote that justified their lack of abilities promised and go "Oh, yeah things are on a gradient so it is okay I have trouble with that "or "I need more training to be cause over that or word clearing or FPRD or..."

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit

― W.C. Fields

They muddy the water, to make it seem deep.

– Friedrich Nietzsche

Getting rid of a delusion makes us wiser than getting hold of a truth.

Ludwig Borne

For those that see the confusions as hidden in the mind :

Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life, and you will call it fate.

– Carl Jung

Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.

Lao Tzu

The spell can be broken just by asking yourself, "Is what I'm believing true?"

—Byron Katie

Please let me know if this is adequate for you. I think he simply wanted to use mysteries as confusions to make people susceptible to influence and knew clear answers that did not lead to more confusion would kill the con. This also why he used contradiction - he wanted people to never know where they stood on anything and lean on him more and more as they became more unsure as the contradictions made the double bind utterly obscure all ideas and reach out to him to think, and decide for them. When we are little  children we trust our parents usually on many,  many matters and are at their mercy. He wanted that intensified and never lessened and clear unchanging answers - even false ones - would eventually provide clarity ( even temporarily ) and that could lead to critical thinking if the answer blew up. So he had to make it so none of the answers are clear and subject to strong direct examination. OT feats would be clear and subject to examination and comparison with other Scientologists and they would come up very short.

Also I think the greater and greater lies as one progresses are to induce confusion more and more as the earlier lies can build up a kind of level of acceptance like tolerance in alcoholics. So for the lie to  to work you need to up the incredulity and that is why the OT levels are so absurd - they have to be or people would wake up as they said "Okay I am on OT blah - I should be a lot better than this !"

For further reading I will list several references and the areas they elaborate on.

• Blog Archive by Topic

Regarding mind control in Scientology:

Insidious Enslavement: Study Technology
http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/01/i...ology.html?m=0

Basic Introduction To Hypnosis In  Scientology

http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/01/b...is-in.html?m=0

Pissed It's Not Your Fault !!!

http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/01/p...fault.html?m=0

The Critical Factor

http://mbnest.blogspot.com/201...

The Secret Of Scientology Part 1 Control Via Contradiction

http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/01/t...art-1.html?m=0

Burning Down Hell - How Commands Are Hidden, Varied And Repeated To Control You As Hypnotic Implants

http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/02/m...-hell.html?m=0

Humbling Simplicity
http://mbnest.blogspot.com/201...

The Empty Well

http://mbnest.blogspot.com/201...

Why Hubbard Never Claimed OT Feats And The Rock Bottom Basis Of Scientology

http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/02/m...never.html?m=0

Regarding Hubbard's uses of loaded language with reversals of truth

Propaganda By Reversal Of Meaning In Scientology

http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/03/p...ng-in.html?m=0

Regarding the narcissism and sociopathic tendencies in Ron Hubbard and his cult

Scientology's Parallel In Nature - Malignant Narcissism

http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/05/s...ure_3.html?m=0

Regarding Dissociation

Exteriorization Versus Dissociation

http://mbnest.blogspot.com/201...

ARC And KRC

ARC And KRC

The following is an excerpt from an email I recently sent Jon Atack discussing my routine answer when an indie says "I like ARC and KRC they are good tools " . I hope it may help inspire consideration on the other view of these things .

I recently have been telling how he took in my opinion complexes (which I simplify even further as associations - l see emotions , ideas and behavior as linked to each other . In other words a man may think of say his mom and feel love, and do a behavior linked to her - perhaps call her . A woman may think of her baby and feel anticipation of seeing the child , and hurry up to get to see the tot .)
So it is obvious what Hubbard did here he made ARC by making emotion affinity , ideas reality and behavior communication . He knew by changing any one - even slightly- he could via repetition both normalize the new aspect of a person - say a behavior - from cognitive dissonance theory we get the other two being nudged over to resolve the dissonance . The change is always by the victim to comply with Hubbard , never accepted the other way . This is his working the corners of the triangle to raise one to raise the others .


It is a kind of conditioning as Hubbard studied Pavlov . By redefining affinity as physical closeness he makes a semantic destruction of love . It is lost in truth by this trick . Reality of course with his "agreement "instead of actuality makes delusion of "agreed on" strongly supplant the physical existence we are actually experiencing ( in my opinion ) .
It predisposes delusion as opposed to say observing nature ( the most basic root of science - observe nature to study it ) . And his communication is a way to remake behavior via a covert terminology . The drills and TRs and theories are all to make precisely controlled and submissive unthinking slaves . Who are willing to control others , as they are not aware of what they are truly doing .


He has "understanding "composed of faking liking people and hiding your true emotions , with a fixed unblinking stare ( ideal for a covert hypnotist who uses a stare to establish dominance and fake affinity for rapport ) , from" reality "hiding most of Scientology and working points of agreement ( similar to a hypnotist's method of using agreeable statements as paces to disarm judgment ) . And communication has drills and theories and methods to make a victim without hesitation control others with strong confidence . And emphasis on using intention with no doubt and perfect ability to repeat commands endlessly and control every aspect of a conversation and without upsetting someone steer attention . A very good model of a thought reformer or hypnotist .


And not to be too cheeky, but I think Hubbard took this another step - he made a method of using the cultist own mind to influence them . KRC has ( again by redefinition of terms ) knowledge as ideas , reality as emotions and control as behavior . It is subtle so bear with me . By making knowledge replace ideas he plays another trick - he has certainty replace wisdom or well tested or developed ideas . In other words he shifts from ideas to knowledge then to certainty which is not well tested and verified conclusions but unthinking deep strong delusion with no doubt . A complete reversal by redefinition - Orwell might shudder at this . And responsibility is a particularly cruel trick . He says it is "nonrecognition and denial of the right of intervention between oneself and any being..." He is making the rights of others irrelevant in the face of Scientology .He makes Scientology trump laws , authority , family , traditions , decency , equality and compassion . By a corollary of his oddly complex phrase he denies rights - which ? ALL.

He also makes all failures in Scientology a method to use shame , blame and regret to make a Scientologist just see themself as the source of all failures in Scientology as if you fail - you must take more responsibility . This is used over and over to induce guilt and that creates anxiety and a weakening of identity or ego and confusion . All confusions in Scientology are solved with "stable data " hypnotic commands given in times of vulnerability . By taking more responsibility it always means more submission to Scientology . Whether by spending more time on course or auditing or joining staff or working more or joining the SO . Or if a wealthy public giving ever increasing mountains of money . All Hubbard references on taking responsibility equal more complete surrender to the cult . In ethics this translates to a more complete submission via confession , OW write-ups , conditions etc. giving greater submission of your identity and inner secrets to the cult and its methodology .And control has by its humorous " the only way to control people is to lie to them " an odd implication . And by saying all three are linked a Scientologist is taught to take more responsibility if failing at control or to take control if failing at knowledge or responsibility . A circular idea that demands fanatical zeal with no doubt ( or critical or independent thought ), ruthless action denying all rights or outside authority or independence , and actions that require in training overriding others very will . And submission to Scientology's control as well .

Anyway , that is just an example of what I routinely dash off as an answer to an indie who may say "I love ARC and KRC - there is nothing bad about them " .
They are obviously not harmless to me .

• Blog Archive by Topic

 

Burning Down Hell - How Commands Are Hidden , Varied And Repeated In Scientology To Control You As Hypnotic Implants

BURNING DOWN HELL

Allright , I was talking to a veteran ex and critic the other day and wrote that I was shocked no one has prior to now has analyzed Hubbard's doctrine and spotted the rhetorical techniques and then seen what they are there for then categorized them , made that a routine part of thought and remembering and reading them ( or just recalling a few hundred basic doctrine from memory ) then swept them away and seen what statements remain and by recalling them verbatim simply looked at and memorized a few hundred quotes from Marcus Aurelius , Lao Tzu , Confucius , Crowley and others to see what the enticing bait parts of the doctrine were and the other parts then zeroed in on the others and seen what they do and where they were stolen from as it really is all stolen and repackaged .

He said the figuring it out and then recognizing and sweeping it away part is the hard part . Many are still part Freezoner or indie for many decades and confused what worked and did not . Well I assumed many like me have within a couple months figured none of it worked in truth and all is a fraud - then learned through hundreds of hours what was hypnotism , how it worked and what was rhetoric as classic ethos , pathos , logos and sublime writing and unusual turns of phrases , contradictions , repetition and other basic techniques . and how the unconscious is manipulated and psychological defense mechanisms are manipulated to have them help the mind control . And cognitive dissonance and the fundamental attribution error etc. etc.

I was spoiled in having Lermanet.com and Jon Atack having done decades of research to cut the con down to a far more manageable size for me to start at .So I will always have profound appreciation for that and knowing they have helped thousands more escape the con by their efforts . Not to mention the wonderful and lovable Tory Magoo with her great friendly heartwarming videos to help us all through a dark and horrifying time in coming out of the cult and the truly heroic Gerry Armstrong for all his efforts including revealing the affirmations which are key to my research and the Rosetta stone of Scientology and his deep exposure of the SP doctrine as repackaged Nazism . These heroes and others saved me decades of work and let my exit counseling move at light speed compared to many others .

I was lucky that my mentors introduced me to varying and compelling ideas on some points which required rehabilitating my own critical thinking to find answers and that led me to dive into logical fallacies and that is key to see how Hubbard implants them in his doctrine to control thought habitually covertly as conditioning for life .

I realized in talking online to hundreds of people I keep telling the same " the celebs are all attacking the attacker because of the ad hominem group of implants and the cult has to do this because of this embedded command and ... " and what I really need to do is show YOU guys what the tools to recognize and spot this stuff routinely and effortlessly are and let you look at them and see if they are correct and have all the right parts laid out or not .

Simple , right ?

Actually , with the right tools it is . Give me a chance and bear with me - I promise anything I give you will be shorter and more true than GAT I and II .

Okay first I want to refer to some very short videos for you to watch they have key ideas very simply explained . Do not just take any of this on faith and remember I do not endorse everything in these videos just use them to get basic concepts for comparison .

And I will be telling where Hubbard stole some ideas from as seeing how others used them gives clues what he intended too . You should at least read Basic Introduction to Hypnotic Induction before this starts :http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?37148-BASIC-INTRODUCTION-TO-HYPNOTIC-INDUCTION

But first a video for consideration :How To Use Embedded Commands by Dantalion Jones https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ch5GLJd6aDE
and to compliment it NLP Embedded Commands and suggestions : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWqjUQrxCKo


They explain in simple language that embedded commands are hidden covert statements in theory placed in the subconscious of the victim and they require a delivery mechanism - a speech or writing to be placed in and they are in need of repetition to establish a pattern in the victim's mind and they use variation stating the command or idea in slightly different ways to have it click in the victim's mind and change behavior . The subconscious is in truth a metaphor and not an actual physical structure but it works for describing hypnotic and behavioral phenomena .

Milton Erickson saw the repetition as needed and the variation also as helping get the technique to set the command and Hubbard uses both tremendously and far beyond what most could conceive of . Note :I NEVER recommend NLP as a practice or therapy as it is a fraud and unethical . It is a cult on training wheels as it tells the trainers at least that they are covertly influencing and manipulating where Scientology has many more layers of lies to penetrate and so helps through the commonalities see what Hubbard was doing under the surface . It is still a school for sociopaths but they know it where Scientology makes sociopaths covertly .

More in the next installment .

Yeah , I have said NLP is a fraud and the subconscious is a metaphor . It is to help explain- like if someone said my heart says yes but my head says no -we know it is not literal but still can understand . My honesty is meant to make it so you just listen and do not fall for pseudo science . Some hypnotism deniers fight tooth and claw to NOT listen EVER . Hmm , got bias ?

The important thing is that Hubbard's persuasion did in fact work to some degree on some people and if you listen to me you may agree but if you do not you are rejecting the idea you dare not learn to understand . The ideas he used came to some degree from hypnotism as well documented in his own writings ( see Never Believe a Hypnotist by Jon Atack for many examples ) and they are repackaged in NLP into a pseudo science to covertly influence ( sound familiar ) but the language is more up front in that persuasion by deception is the intent . Look they try like Hubbard to do the same thing but are willing to come out and say it so you can look at them and more easily understand him . They are more honest liars .

Yeah , I was confused at first but quickly figured out their game so just check out what they TRY and see how Hubbard TRIED the exact sane tactics on YOU .

So any way , the important things to get on embedded commands are that they are statements in Hubbard's doctrine intended to by repetition and variation achieve behavioral changes covertly in cult members . That is it - in theory your mind forms patterns of similar information on themes and topics and by giving over and over the same or varied ideas and statements they become a conditioned part of your behavior and you do not even think about them - you just do them .

This to some fits the slogans and long repeated stable data Scientologists turn to over and over time after time . They are habitual on purpose by Hubbard .
Hubbard had number of times over equals certainty - that is repetition which cult members get loads of for the study " tech" and KSW and tons of other basic ideas . This includes OW write ups and many other things . Remember" results in the students own case..." that is the behavioral change that indicates sufficient repetition for the embedded command to be successful.

See , Hubbard got the idea from hypnosis and it is simple - hide statements in a delivery mechanism - in this case a written reference or tape , then repeat them and vary them and keep doing it until you get a behavioral response you desire .That is embedded commands . You can call it conditioning or thought reform or anything - I do not care as long as you understand the idea and consider it thoroughly in looking at what Hubbard's "technology" did to us .

It is a fundamental he used over and over : he loved repetition and this is where it fits in .Next I will take on a couple more simple ideas on persuasion .

I also strongly suggest learning anything even basic about logical fallacies and the most basic rhetoric you can and critical thinking and skepticism and scientific method . Gib posted some very simple sites that detail that rhetoric - classic style - consists of ethos ( authority) , logos ( logic or logical seeming ideas ) and pathos ( emotional influence ) . These are also names of fallacy calsses . Some fallacies are these being used to influence thought . The ideas overlap and compliment each other - a speech can have pathos and I can fall for an unseen appeal to emotion as they are two names for the same phenomena and error in reason .

Here is a quote from an earlier post at ESMB on rhetoric :Here is a small collection of quotes from a very simple site Gib was kind enough to find and share :

Defining rhetoric :

• The art of persuasion, and the study of the art of persuasion, and An individual act of persuasion.
• In the work we'll do in our rhetorical analysis, there are 2 parties to be concerned with:The rhetor: the party that is attempting to persuade, andThe audience: the party that is the target of persuasion.
  "Of the [modes of persuasion] provided through speech there are three species: for some are in the character of the speaker, and some are in disposing the listener in some way, and some in the argument itself, by showing or seeming to show something" --Aristotle, On Rhetoric, 1356b (trans. George A. Kennedy)
  In other words, Aristotle argues that there are three elements to the art of persuasion:
• ethos: The rhetor is perceived by the audience as credible (or not).
• pathos: The rhetor attempts to persuade the audience by making them feel certain emotions.
• logos: The rhetor attempts to persuade the audience by the use of arguments that they will perceive as logical.

We call these three elements rhetorical appeals. It's not necessary for every act of persuasion to make use of all three appeals. Often, however, there is some element of each. In academic writing, ethos and logos are given more respect than pathos. An essay that relies primarily on pathos, with little use of ethos or logos, is unlikely to be perceived by an academic audience as persuasive.

Page history last edited by George H. Williams 2 years ago

"Part 1" of the Norton Field Guide to Writing covers the concept of "Rhetorical Situations" (1-17).

Whenever we write, whether it's an email to a friend or a toast for a wedding, an English essay or a résumé, we face some kind of rhetorical situation. We have a purpose, a certain audience, a particular stance, a genre, and a medium to consider--and often as not a design. All are important elements that we need to think about carefully. (1)

This concept is usually covered in English 101, and you can review "Part 1" if you need to refresh your understanding. In what follows below, we're going to cover what are called the "three rhetorical appeals."
What is Rhetoric? Before we can understand the ways in which the rhetorical appeals work, we must first understand what rhetoric is.
Definition There are many commonly-used definitions, but for our purposes "rhetoric" refers to all of the following:

• The art of persuasion, and
• The study of the art of persuasion, and
• An individual act of persuasion.

In the work we'll do in our rhetorical analysis, there are 2 parties to be concerned with:

1. The rhetor: the party that is attempting to persuade, and
2. The audience: the party that is the target of persuasion.

We will consider ourselves to be a 3rd party: the observer. We're not being persuaded. We're not persuading. We're just observing the interaction between the rhetor and the audience.
Three Rhetorical Appeals

"Of the [modes of persuasion] provided through speech there are three species: for some are in the character of the speaker, and some are in disposing the listener in some way, and some in the argument itself, by showing or seeming to show something" --Aristotle, On Rhetoric, 1356b (trans. George A. Kennedy)

In other words, Aristotle argues that there are three elements to the art of persuasion:

• ethos: The rhetor is perceived by the audience as credible (or not).
• pathos: The rhetor attempts to persuade the audience by making them feel certain emotions.
• logos: The rhetor attempts to persuade the audience by the use of arguments that they will perceive as logical.

We call these three elements rhetorical appeals. It's not necessary for every act of persuasion to make use of all three appeals. Often, however, there is some element of each. In academic writing, ethos and logos are given more respect than pathos. An essay that relies primarily on pathos, with little use of ethos or logos, is unlikely to be perceived by an academic audience as persuasive. Below, each of these appeals is explained in more detail.

---

Seldom is any one statement an example of only one appeal.
"I have to tell you that if you don't stop smoking, you're going to die, " said the doctor to her patient.

This statement combines all three appeals: End quote

The full link is :http://georgehwilliams.pbworks.com/w/page/14266873/Ethos-Pathos-Logos-The-3-Rhetorical-Appeals

I also need to mention sublime writing which is intended to influence the audience into ecstasy and that is a trance state . Hubbard studied all this under Dean Wilbur and it is well documented he intended to use these methods . Hubbard stole many ideas and statements knowing what they had done to earlier audiences and then used them repackaged to influence his victims. He knew we mistakenly lower our guard mentally and are not skeptical or critical and independent when we are in certain states that can be encouraged by sublime writing . All the things he wrote in the art series on audiences and achieving an emotional impact and art not being able to be too original are from his study of sublime writing . They are all stolen ideas on influence . I would not be too shocked if they were all on the Dean's course . Here is Hubbard's letter to the Dean :http://education.lronhubbard.org/page16.htm

Okay , now for another element of influence : pacing and leading . In influence pacing is saying things that are easily agreeable - that means we can see them or both already believe them and leading is saying things you do not already believe . It is a method of influence Hubbard used extensively and in many works .

Paces are to get you to relax and let your guard down and build trust . You can accept things from some one if you can see they tell the truth and you can relax more as they keep telling the truth . It is human nature . They can add in other things and keep telling easily agreed on things and your guard may not spring back up if they do not jump too far too fast as your general attitude may stay accepting and not have you zero in on anything to doubt and examine closely . Studying rhetoric or critical thinking or skepticism or logical fallacies very deeply and integrating any or all of them in your routine thinking can to some degree counter this but I always caution against overconfidence on resisting influence .

Working in leads slowly gets you to gradually change beliefs , ideas and behavior when this works . Here is a video on this : Okay , now for another element of influence : pacing and leading . In influence pacing is saying things that are easily agreeable - that means we can see them or both already believe them and leading is saying things you do not already believe . It is a method of influence Hubbard used extensively and in many works .

Paces are to get you to relax and let your guard down and build trust . You can accept things from some one if you can see they tell the truth and you can relax more as they keep telling the truth . It is human nature . They can add in other things and keep telling easily agreed on things and your guard may not spring back up if they do not jump too far too fast as your general attitude may stay accepting and not have you zero in on anything to doubt and examine closely . Studying rhetoric or critical thinking or skepticism or logical fallacies very deeply and integrating any or all of them in your routine thinking can to some degree counter this but I always caution against overconfidence on resisting influence .

Working in leads slowly gets you to gradually change beliefs , ideas and behavior when this works . Here is a video on this : Mind Control How to Use Pacing and Leading by Dantaloin Jones on Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdEhctNh5tc

I need to include one of the most important ideas on how Hubbard tried to influence people , he used multiple methods constantly simultaneously . In some schools this is called stacking . You can use a fallacy to influence and an embedded command and repetition . He often combined from rhetoric ethos , pathos and logos in the same reference . And there is far more but I will first show building blocks and describe them before we get deep into that .Trust me if you get the basic ideas well they make the combined and more complex ones a breeze especially if you did a lot in Scientology .

I need to include one of the most important ideas on how Hubbard tried to influence people , he used multiple methods constantly simultaneously . In some schools this is called stacking . You can use a fallacy to influence and an embedded command and repetition . He often combined from rhetoric ethos , pathos and logos in the same reference . And there is far more but I will first show building blocks and describe them before we get deep into that .Trust me if you get the basic ideas well they make the combined and more complex ones a breeze especially if you did a lot in Scientology .

Next I will introduce a video by Dantalion Jones on Youtube : What is a Confusion Pattern ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc_aQ1D1omA

This video covers some ideas on ways that people are confused and what that does to their minds . It has some similarity to my own ideas on confusion and I invite you to watch the video and compare Hubbard's methods for yourself . In particular it has an explanation of how related to cognitive dissonance theory a confusion from contradiction can cause discomfort and blankness and to escape this a person can be more suggestible for a short time . Hubbard in my opinion used this extensively in many forms and applications - from basic study tech and word clearing to auditing and ethics and even parts of admin . Hubbard used contradiction or paradox over and over to create wonder and awe- they helped him enthrall victims .

I suggest any who want to and do not already know about confusion as hypnotic study hypnosis on your own or check out some threads :http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?36369-INSIDIOUS-ENSLAVEMENT-STUDY-TECHNOLOGY

Next I recommend a video on something I think Hubbard used very effectively in almost every reference as a method of rhetoric .The video is Using Negative Emotions to Influence and Persuade . I see him as using them far more than the video details and he used fear , shame , blame and regret to control and break down and remake his victims . Margaret Singer studied and got a PhD on Chinese brainwashing and reportedly studied four thousand ex cultists . She has been quoted as saying Hubbard's OW "tech" used the same basic principles but is far more refined than the Chinese method . OWs are false - former ED Int for life Bill Franks in an interview stated Hubbard told him that but to tell people would cost him all his followers as 80% of the fraud relies on OWS and the "tech" to "handle" them . This covers far more than OWs but they are a big part of the fraud . They do not exist as Hubbard said at all . Evil acts and secrets do but he lied about them and should never be trusted or believed .


Next is gaslighting a method Hubbard put his own spin on and you can compare it to what happens in Scientology . It is often subtle in Scientology as Hubbard made claims in his doctrine that make agreeing with him to be seen as sane and not agreeing to be seen as not sane or correct . The truth rundown and other actions are more openly very similar to gaslighting . You may know others .  Gaslighting by Dantalion Jones YouTube video . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul7lLUwnI6w

This has info on repetitive questioning - a fundamental in all Dianetics and Scientology and very subtle method of mind control .

A link to MY new blog Mockingbird's Nest : http://mbnest.blogspot.com/search?up...08:00&max-resu


A NEW page listing most of my posts and threads at ESMB
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthrea...390#post989390
David Miscavige is NOT a Scientologist BUT he is a MURDERER !

 Mockingbird's Greatest Hits
I have reached nearly two hundred posts online and thousands of comments as well. In looking back at all that I realized a very small number of posts have been consistently the most viewed and likely most helpful for people seeking to understand Scientology.

I certainly hope they are helping people. Here I will try to present the short list of the posts that best explain my ideas and can introduce you to information that I hope will help begin beneficial examination of Scientology.

1)Insidious Enslavement: Study Technology
http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/01/i...ology.html?m=0

2)Basic Introduction To Hypnosis in Scientology

http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/01/b...is-in.html?m=0

3)Pissed It's Not Your Fault !!!

http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/01/p...fault.html?m=0


4)The Secret Of Scientology Part 1 Control Via Contradiction

http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/01/t...art-1.html?m=0

5)Burning Down Hell - How Commands Are Hidden, Varied And Repeated To Control You As Hypnotic Implants

http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/02/m...-hell.html?m=0

6)Why Hubbard Never Claimed OT Feats And The Rock Bottom Basis Of Scientology

http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/02/m...never.html?m=0

7)A Million Years In Hell

http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/02/a...-hell.html?m=0

8-10)OT III And Beyond: Sources Plagiarized From Part 1, 2 and 3
Part 1
http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/03/o...rized.html?m=0

Part 2
http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/03/o...ed_14.html?m=0

Part 3
http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/03/o...ed_17.html?m=0

11)Propaganda By Reversal Of Meaning In Scientology

http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/03/p...ng-in.html?m=0

12)Scientology's Parallel In Nature - Malignant Narcissism

http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/05/s...ure_3.html?m=0

13)OT VIII Delusion Fulfilled

http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/05/o...ed_30.html?m=0.

14)There Is No Irony In Scientology

http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/08/t...ology.html?m=0

15 - 16)Why Lying And Murder Are Justified In Scientology part 1 and 2

Part 1
http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/10/w...ed-in.html?m=0

Part 2

http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/10/w...in_26.html?m=0.


17)Unraveling Scientology - A Missing Vital Ingredient


http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/11/u...vital.html?m=0.

18)Loving A Lie


http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/12/loving-lie.html?m=0.

19)Two Roads


http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/12/two-roads.html?m=0.

20)Orders Of Magnitude Part 1


http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/11/o...art-1.html?m=0.

These twenty posts have been both popular and give a very good grounding in many of my ideas on Scientology.

Obviously series on particular issues like the Building The Prison Of The Mind series as an example address specific topics in depth. That serves to equal a book in length over several posts. That example takes on Leon Festinger's essential book A Theory Of Cognitive Dissonance and takes on Scientology in reference to that book. Another series as an example is Pulling Back The Curtain which took on the excellent social psychology text Age Of Propaganda and Scientology.

For fans of social psychology and cognitive dissonance theory I sincerely hope those series are helpful and do justice to the books I consulted. I really recommend those books for education on Scientology and cults.

But this top twenty is meant to give the most essential posts to know what I have to say and who I am. It has my past, detailed information on my observations and hypotheses regarding Scientology and what it is, attempts to dissect it and identify the methods Ron Hubbard used, and ideas on recovery from Scientology.

• Blog Archive by Topic

The Empty Well

I as many know spent 25 years in Scientology and probably ten thousand hours indoctrinated with "study technology" and many other thousands of hours using " ethics technology ". I have been on staff, lived in Sea Org orgs and met hundreds of Scientologists in person over the decades.

I also in 2014 left Scientology and tried to learn what it really is and does. That is a lot to take on but I have some observations to share. It is a fraud and mind control cult. It uses covert hypnosis extensively and sublime writing and rhetoric and many elements of mind control and deception from other practices but has no true benefit whatsoever.

In Norse Mythology Odin -the chief and most powerful and wise god-  sacrifices an eye to Mimir's Well a magical well that has tremendous knowledge and wisdom but an eye is needed to use it. Odin sacrifices his eye in the myth and becomes profoundly wise and learns all the magic in the world and the sacrifice is well worth it for what he gains.

in Scientology people often when leaving - including otherwise critical thinkers - claim "Well with all the people who did all the stuff in Scientology there are too many claims of gains to disprove so some must be real so there must be workable or beneficial technology somewhere in that".

Some go on to say things like: "Take away the 'bad parts' like David Miscavige, Fair Game, the SP doctrine, R2-45, the Tone Scale, Ethics Tech, Confessionals, the RPF, forced abortions, slavery in the Sea Org, OSA, KSW and on and on and people should be free to believe anything they want to".

I find that very problematic for several reasons: I have found zero workable technology, lots of persuasion and delusion. Some plagiarism but at best he stole "feel good statements" in other words ideas that FEEL good to think and say and read.

These ideas may not be true but can make temporary appeals to emotion and thereby cause acceptance as true and positive feelings. Hardly miracles or the secrets of life and the universe. Hubbard uses this what is known as sublime writing which stirs emotions and causes ecstasy - a kind of trance state - to get victims willing to trust and enter a happy euphoric trance state and to get them to accept embedded commands (hidden hypnotic statements relying on repetition and variation to be effective) which he works in.

He in constructing his fraud did not have to write inspiring and enthralling quotes of his own: he did what some modern "musicians " do now - find what worked on others for this purpose of inspiration and "sample" it. He in his conditions says to use "successful actions ". He plagiarized many, many sources - Lao Tzu, Confucius, Marcus Aurelius, and very, very often Crowley and  Hitler. Some to disarm reason, others to replace it.

This is unethical influence and not reformable to me. The middle ground fallacy is always the wrong approach to me. Some exes do it to save face for all the years fooled but it is another fallacy - an appeal to emotion - pride in this case. It is hard to accept being fooled so much for so long. They need to accept that we can follow and die for beliefs that may be wrong.

Many in the Crusades and similar conflicts lived, fought and died for beliefs. All these beliefs are not possibly valid as they contradict each other - so many thousands had to die in vain no matter which faith is true, if any.

I accept wasting twenty five years on lies but for some reason my acceptance and progress are the exception and not the norm.The well we sacrificed to is, was and always will be empty. Sorry - seeing this is vital to facing the truth to me.

 

• Blog Archive by Topic

Recognizing And Recovering From Narcissists , Sociopaths , And Psychopaths

Recognizing and recovering from narcissists , sociopaths , and psychopaths

This thread is to inform people that there are lots of sites and resources that show abusive relationships and undue influence from the one on one perspective and I have been finding them to be exactly explaining the effects of Scientology and the motivations and methods of Ron Hubbard . Now I will admit most abusers never become expert hypnotists and spend decades stealing ideas from Hitler , Confucius , Lao Tzu , and many others and research cults and aspects of influence including classic rhetoric and sublime writing to forge a mind control cult with hundreds of methods . But many details and methods Hubbard used have their origins in abusive relationships : Gaslighting , using confusion and pathological lying , subtly degrading others , love bombing , pretending accomplishments , hiding crimes and failures , lack of compassion and conscience , stirring loyalty to oneself for power and trust , empty promises and counterfeit dreams , subtly persuading others over time bit by bit to help harm and degrade others , twisting words to confuse then gain compliance , having to top tales with bigger better more unbelievable ones , being unfaithful habitually as you see partners only to be used to boost your own ego , being willing to crush hopes and minds to get dominance and assert superiority , never being satisfied with others as he was motivated by insatiable emptiness and so always projected frustrations onto others , calling into doubt the mental health and sanity of any critics or rivals , and all these can often be found over and over in accounts of being in just one relationship with a narcissistic abuser !!!

The pattern is all too clear-after learning through hundreds of hours how to reinterpret the ten thousand hours I used "study tech " and then spent hundreds of hours in exit counseling and research-Hubbard had the exact character of a narcissistic abuser aka a sociopath aka a psychopath !

It answers many questions on why he never stopped lying and had to tell more and more absurd fabrications ! He was driven to ! His kind follow a pattern that he followed from possibly his teen years or earlier until his death . He has thousands of pieces of evidence that if you asked an expert , without revealing his name , if a behavior fit the model they would certainly agree over and over !

There are many challenges in understanding Scientology . They start with understanding the mad man who made it . His knowledge on how to build a mind control cult and fraud was extraordinary but he was not . He fits a pattern and that can be combined with knowledge on his methods to complete the puzzle he never wanted us to finish and see him laid bare and his con as well . Then we can explain it to the rest of the world as they never were in and so need it totally broken down . We who were in or close to people in can use emotions and intuition but others will need precise clear truth to navigate through Hubbard's lies and psychopathic narcissistic personality . How utterly inhuman and evil he was is the part that is most beyond belief .

First is a Facebook page called the Empathy Trap Book that has theories and details on sociopaths and social dynamics . WAIT most of what it has are short quotes to help understand the common experiences we all share and they are often quite good . They can be about indifference and complacency by others and society or behavior or many other themes we run into in trying to figure out why evil people are evil good are good and often many are apathetic or insensitive to victims . Those people are called apaths and they are tricked bit by bit into allowing and then cooperating with evil . The Hubbard's and Hitler's in theory could not have done their actions on large scales without the apaths in this model of society . It is a theory but I think many here will find the theory and site helpful.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-E...18438958221844

Next is a site that is a site but also has an excellent Facebook page After Narcissistic Abuse Their is Light , Life and Love . I cannot recommend this highly enough to anyone who has been in Scientology or in a relationship with a Scientologist . This is going to be painful and upsetting for some but Hubbard in attempting to make Scientologists into mental pseudo clones of himself to some degree implanted or heightened already existing narcissistic and sociopathic behaviors in his slaves . Because it was done over a group elements of the dynamics of social psychology normalized these behaviors and attitudes so the victims felt encouraged and rewarded for being narcissistic and discouraged and penalized for being empathic and compassionate . Scientology was covertly a factory for making people of all kinds into narcissists , aka sociopaths aka psychopaths . Here is this excellent site :https://afternarcissisticabuse.wordpress.com/ and their great Facebook page :https://www.facebook.com/pages/After...14835348601442

Many victims of Scientology do not understand their difficulties in non abusive relationships when leaving the cult as the cult structure created and demanded abusive and exploitative relationships as routine in its group dynamics . Plainly we were taught to assume positions of abuser and victim so thoroughly it can affect all our relationships and warp them . So , we can have tremendous difficulties with issues like human body language in a non dominating form and boundaries and love bombing strangers and a million other manifestations of extreme cult indoctrination .We can love bomb then when someone is won over neglect , abandon or abuse them as we lived in this pattern as normal for decades . That is the pattern in staff and the Sea Org . That is why if you give a big donation or finish a project or course you get a moment's recognition then have to top it for more attention or praise these are not healthy sane loving relationships . In Scientology the indoctrination is routinely strong enough to heavily suppress the pre-cult identity and have a pseudo identity dominant most of the time .I have seen many presentations by cult experts across the world and seen discussions and videos by the hypnotism community and they always have similar ideas come out even when Scientology is not a topic for discussion . In hypothetical examples when discussing many cults or high control groups if asking about the most extreme control or the most effective mind control for examples or what is done to correspond to a theory Scientology is always no matter who does the presentation the group chosen . One for one whether ICSA or Freedom of Mind or another group or conference . Whether it is Totalistic Identity Theory or Traumatitic Narcisissist Theory or how to set up a support group Scientology is number one with an R2-45 bullet . Hypnotists who seriously study the theory and practice of hypnotism pick different parts like the barriers to study and laugh as they see how it and study tech are and could never be anything other than self hypnotism called another name . They simply list the alleged signs of the barriers( which they know as signs of hypnotic states ) and say Hubbard covertly got a person when spotting contradiction and becoming confused to further confuse themself in a loop to induce a strong hypnotic trance covertly . They take his tapes and books and PLs and bulletins and laugh as the pattern is too easy and recognizable to them . They do not see how it can fool anyone but miss the point that we never knew how to covertly hypnotize people or to inject embedded commands with repetition and variation or to confuse with contradiction . We never knew to raise anxiety to focus attention and diminish reason . We did not know our asses from a whole in the ground when it came to how to hypnotize people . We never knew to use sublime writing to lower people's guards and then use lots of similar words to cause confusion in a writing pattern . we never knew to use overly complex sentences and strange turns of phrases to slightly bewilder and that creates a feeling of almost understanding that distracts and makes one think they are not quite as smart as the author building ethos or authority .

I plan to add more to this as I want recovery resources to be the priority they should be as Hubbard's victims and their happiness matter not him and his insanity .

A NEW page listing most of my posts and threads at ESMB
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthrea...390#post989390
David Miscavige is NOT a Scientologist BUT he is a MURDERER !

The Sour Knight

MOCKINGBIRD'S NEST

The following ideas are going to be put out to demonstrate the state of mind an ex Scientologist may achieve after decades in the cult and realizing how truly depraved the institutional evil in in it ,  its alleged 'founder ' Ron Hubbard and current psychopathic cult leader David Miscavige is .

There is a type of character at TV Tropes called the knight in sour armor that is appropriate for a long time cultist who escapes , has lost all innocence and idealism and decides despite never being able to undo or cancel or make up for all the evil they may have done - and in some people's eyes being irrevocably damned - they will try to be a decent person for the time they have left .That can include facing responsibility for crimes and harmful  and traumatic actions taken both before and while in the cult and realizing thousands of things done and said were totally wrong and not justified by being in the cult .

I have some quotes on the character type from that site : The world is filled with idealists who believe in truth and justice and devote their lives to fighting for it. And then the world keeps letting them down. For them, Being Good Sucks. But rather than giving up on their goals, they replace their shiny armor with a full plate of pure cynicism. These characters realize they live in a dark, cruel and brutal world and choose to fight not because they believe they will truly make a difference, but because it's the right thing to do. :Tv Tropes .

. A Knight In Sour Armor believes in the rules and breaks them only when absolutely necessary, which is very rarely; not surprisingly, many have taken a Heroic Vow related to this behavior. Often has a personal set of rules, trimmed down to those that really matter in order to minimize conflicts and distractions. Contributes to the Knight's gruff tendencies, since politeness tends to appear a lot further down the priority list than feeding orphans and so on.
Generally, these characters fit one of two personality types. Members of the first type are former Wide Eyed Idealists who have come to accept that their world is on the low end of the Sliding Scale of Idealism Versus Cynicism, but who still find something beautiful in their former ideals that they want to hold on to. Those of the second type are born cynics, who would make natural Jerk Ass antiheroes, but who nevertheless have devoted themselves to a code of honor or fair play. In either case, these people tend to have gone through (often painful) Character Development in their past, meaning that they are normally older than the average hero. Either way, however, the effect is basically the same: you have a Knight in Shining Armor wearing Jade-Colored Glasses; the difference between the first and second types is which comes first.Tv Tropes .

This is similar to the Anti Nihilist :This is the sort of character that goes by doctrines along the lines of "Don't cling to pain. Don't expect happiness. Don't fear loss. Accept reality as it is. Enjoy the good. Endure the bad. Don't make a big deal out of anything. Be selfless, and unconditionally kind and just, without ever expecting a reward. We're all going to end up as piles of dust, so why not be nice to each other and get those pleasant fuzzies?"
Basically, an Anti-Nihilist that decides to be nice, heroic, caring, loving and/or compassionate for the same reasons the Straw Nihilist decides to be an unfettered Social Darwinist Omnicidal Maniac. Instead of angsting all the time about "Life is hell, we're all gonna die and you can't fight fate, thus we might as well start killing each other right now", this type thinks more like "Life is hell, we're all gonna die and you can't fight fate... but why not make each others' lives worthwhile and enjoyable in the meantime? The only thing that matters is letting people know that you care about them, because whatever someone is, has, or can do doesn't mean a damned thing in the end." The Anti-Nihilist is usually a Knight in Sour Armor who knows how cynical the world is, but decides to stick to a particular value and make meaning out of it, despite knowing how utterly meaningless, pointless and nonrewarding doing so is.Tv Tropes

Now having decided that despite life containing tremendous evil and spotting an immense amount in one's own past conduct an ex may decide to be an atoner :

"Long is the way, and hard, that out of Hell leads up to Light."

— John Milton, Paradise Lost

Once, they were a major villain. They did every crime one could think of, and did it with a song in their heart and a skip in their step. Then, something happened. The Atoner has realized the error of their ways, possibly wants to make amends, and have decided that they will do so via heroic deeds. Simply going to jail won't do, because this isn't always applicable to their "sin." Besides, they have all these amazing skills from being a villain that would be wasted, and they can do more good out there. The problem is, they often have to wrestle with going back to their old self, along with the massive guilt built up over years of carefree evil. Also, said previous villain skills usually involve killing people in very messy ways, which can result in karmically harmful situations. Other times their evil side won't go down without a fight, and manifests itself as a Superpowered Evil Side. Ultimately, it comes down to the fact that no amount of babies saved will make up for killing people in the past. The Atoner usually realizes that "Redemption is the path, not the destination" and continues for the rest of their life.Tv Tropes 


For some the evil may be enough that it cannot truly all be balanced out or  surpassed , this has some parallels in fiction to look at for comparison and reflection . I will briefly look at some here .First a character very well known in American comics , cartoons and movies : James Howlett aka Logan bka Wolverine of the X-Men .

 

For any who do not know Wolverine , in fiction , has a very dark and long past having been subjected to extreme mind control and made into a remorseless killer who murdered hundreds of people ( possibly thousands )  - many innocent  and realized this when his mind was freed to remember who he really was . The conclusion he reached is that nothing he does now can take away the past or make it up . He will simply try to be decent and help good people the rest of his life as he sees no better option .

The similarity to my experience with Scientology after having done harmful actions before joining the cult ( though no murders or criminally liable acts )  then being in for 25 years and then seeing it as a terrorist organization that has committed murders and other crimes under the veil of religious cloaking all hidden from almost all  members is remarkably similar to Wolverine's path . Both lead to reflection and reorientation but not redemption : the road is too long , the deficit too great to balance but the effort is still to be made . Anything else is a betrayal of the newly liberated and oriented conscience , whatever there may be of it .

Next is another who walks a violent and dark path filled with murder and betrayal - similar to the "products" Ron Hubbard and David Miscavige give Scientologists .

Storm Shadow :











Storm Shadow is a character in Gi Joe comics and cartoons and movies and has several versions of origins and eventual outcomes . In some he is a ninja framed for murder who ends up on a long path of violence and murder and seeks redemption for being framed and the innocent lives he takes along the way . He is interestingly enough , in some stories , convinced of the innocence of the "good guys "and joins their cause then later taken and subjected to repeated extensive long term brainwashing to make him a fanatically loyal slave to the ruthless bad guys by Doctor Mindbender of all people !

The similarity to Hubbard and hie methodology is striking and the fanatical murderous zeal as well .

Finally , I will bring up a lesser known but very relevant character Ninja Assassin :
geez , these ninjas sure mess up a lot  but that is what you get when you have a " give me a target and I will kill them with no mercy and not bother with any questions or doubts ever " approach to life and ethics .

 This film stars Rain as Raizo , and the plot goes predictably as  a young and talented assassin  is raised since a young age by a ninja clan . Then  he gets doubts and becomes disillusioned and rebels against them . He is able to kill his former cruel mentor , several rivals  and leave with a female ninja he grows to care for . He notably says the first day of his life is the day he is free and leaves the clan - leaving behind the murders he committed and the identity he had before .

Look , most Scientologists do not in fact commit murder for the cult . Most . I have known a murderer and many others know the odd one or two as well . We are usually never told the truth about this at all while in . I cannot stress that enough - it is hidden from us .


Now I am not an assassin with super martial arts skills and neither are any other Scientologists ( sorry) . Being a crazed cultist is more about covert mind control and long persisting hypnotic delusion than esoteric combat .But what the cult lacks in martial supremacy it more than makes up for in undue influence via double bind based hypnotic mind control utilizing confusion and repetition with classic rhetoric and sublime writing along with psychological manipulation and covert cognitive restructuring . And in numbers and wealth and legal and political influence .

It is no ninja clan but enthralls slaves into blind obedience and unreasoning slavish devotion - including millionaires who grease the legal and political wheels with immense donations . They are keeping a vital part of the con going . They are flanked by several thousand slaves filling the Sea Org paramilitary branch and Staff then finally several thousand more as public level members .


Unlike Ninjas in fiction  ex Scientologists cannot take on hordes of cultists in deadly combat to be redeemed . We cannot face David Miscavige in a showdown then walk away into the sunset . But we can have the courage to try to be decent and attain compassion and humility which Scientology lacks . And critical thinking to better understand ourselves and life and rhetoric in its fullest definition -which is any influence of human thought , emotion or behavior -and in particular the hypnotism , classic rhetoric , sublime writing ,  the manipulation of psychological defense mechanisms , trauma bonding , the fundamental attribution error  and cult indoctrination methods including the eight criteria of thought reform aka mind control and other methods in the totalist or undue influence models that describe Scientology and its effects on members .

We can have several obligations : to strive for decency despite losing the false claim of immortality as a reward and be good because we have a conscience and remorse . We can strive to be better , to think better , to understand and undo what happened to us and use those unique insights to help others become free and warn the public so future slaves are spared the horror of cult abuse and degradation .

And so similar "technologies" meet a world warned and wise to their tricks .
So whether irredeemable or not we can say damn damnation and strive on .